forums.silverfrost.com

[jjgermis]

Hi Paul, one thing is for sure: searching the web for an editor does not give Plato as a result - even if Plato is actually "free". Notepad++ on the other hand is one of the first results. Getting down to Plato you first must have an interest in Fortran.

One thing that would be nice in Plato is the possibility to edit a column.

If uncle Google does not know the answer...

[LitusSaxonicum]

Paul,

Something does not actually have to be better to be preferred by someone. It is often that it is just more familiar, or works in a way that suits the user's custom and practice. For a long time I used WordStar and would not be persuaded otherwise until usable Windows came along and the Windows version of WordStar was demonstrably rubbish. Before that I had used various editors on a VAX and other systems, and going back into the dawn of time, various card and tape punches. PFE suits me as much as anything because it has a "DOS box" facility on its toolbar, and this allows me easy access to command line compiling and linking - I've never been comfortable with 'MAKE' type utilities, and when I get fed up with typing my command lines, tend to put them into a BAT file and run that. My biggest irritation with PFE is that I can't jump to the end of a line easily.

I've also recently downloaded Notepad++, and would switch immediately if I could find a way to put the DOS box on its toolbar, although the menu item could no doubt be set against a hotkey. This application understands Fortran syntax, and colours it appropriately - and you can customise this facility. I really missed column edit from WordStar, but I haven't used it in Notepad++.

If I have to, I can comfortably use Notepad the standard Windows application.

Returning to Plato, I can't always find what I'm looking for, but I do know more or less where to look in the FTN95 documentation for the command line options. It's probably a mixture of my resistance to learn too many new tricks, and comfort in familiarity rather than there actually being anything wrong with Plato (except I don't much like its application icon!).

What I really don't like is SCION, as it is really too limited to be of much use.

John may have found that PFE32 doesn't work well in Win7 64bit, and I have yet to discover that as I haven't used it much, although it works fine in 32bit Win7, and even looks like a modern app (or would, if the toolbar icons were a bit livelier).

Regards

Eddie

[LitusSaxonicum]

Here's the problem shown up as images. The toolbars are supposed to look like this (and with 4.90 do):



When I use a later Salflibc.dll, they look like this - just to see how much extra space was created, I made the background for the text red:



I could just redraw every single icon, in every single state, some 2 pixels larger, plus the background (which is an essential thing to cover the gaps between the icons when a custom font size is selected). I've also reprogrammed this using a %gr area, and dumping %tb altogether, but I am struggling with the %th for this - that approach works perfectly for all custom font sizes, gives mousover responsiveness, etc etc etc

Bizarrely, the program does work with the older Salflibc.dll, even when compiled with a later version - even though as you say, it shouldn't.

Eddie

[LitusSaxonicum]

... and in case anyone is interested, the toolbars are all created with %tb, with icons 24 pixels high. The "cartouche" for the status message is part of the backdrop bitmap incorporated with a %bm format code ... the %tb buttons all "rise" to the front of the backdrop, and so does the %rs string. Separators and "bar ends" are all %tb buttons that don't respond, but could easily have been part of the "backdrop %bm (they are there, but are not seen).

As %tb buttons don't respond to mouseover (except by displaying %th), the look and feel isn't perfect. Most of the buttons have up, down, selected and greyed states - I've also got "mousehover" state buttons as well. Understandably, I don't want to have to redraw the lot!

I captured the above without an active "working file", so most of the buttons are greyed out.

E

[PaulLaidler]

Maybe you don't call ALLOCATE in your code. Also there may be other things that go wrong when you use a new compiler with an old dll. Some code will run OK.

I will need a short sample program to work on if I am to fix the problem.

[LitusSaxonicum]

Hi Paul,

Not only don't I not call ALLOCATE, I very rarely use anything other than Fortran 77. OK, I like to use ! for inline comments. I've got hooked on initialising whole arrays in one statement (although doing it in a loop is straightforward enough), and I sometimes now put several short statements on the same line. I would expect 99% of what I write to compile with FTN77 (was 100%). My data structures are so tiny compared to the vastness of even 1 gigabyte that I don't see the need to constrain my use of arrays to exactly what is needed. Also, I lack the mental elasticity to handle more than one problem at a time, and so all my programs are definitely SDI not MDI!

I'll create a short program to use a simplified version of the statement I included some posts ago.

Regards

Eddie

[LitusSaxonicum]

Paul,

Here is the short program:

[jjgermis]

Hi Eddie and Paul,

if I remember correctly then many of these aspects are discused in the "Eddie" tutorial.

Anyway, regarding the Plato editor. I actually do like the editor (and use it rather than VS). Suggestions:
1.) column editing;
2.) ability to have a "DOS box" as Eddie mentioned;
3.) make it available as a single download on the FTN website; and
4.) plug-in for version control;

[PaulLaidler]

1) What does "column editing" mean?

2) There is already a means of opening a DOS box from Plato but it does not work on my current machine. In the Options dialog, under Keyboard, look for Command.OpenDosBox. I will fix this so that it works in future.
Was this what you had in mind?

4) Providing version control would be a major new feature. I will put it on the wish list. What is the significance oF "plug-in". Does this just mean an optional extra?

[LitusSaxonicum]

Paul,

"Column editing" means (for example) being able to cut out the "square" character block from columns i to j in rows m to n, and possibly drop it in elsewhere. I swore that I would never be able to live without it, but actually I have no real need for it! (I used it for laying out data files). Cutting it or copying it doesn't seem to me to be very difficult. Pasting it is where there is a problem ...

Launching a DOS box from a menu is just a little bit tedious - much better to have it one-click away on a toolbar.

I also didn't understand "plug-in". Maybe it is some sort of configurable helper application, or as you put it, optional extra (but integrated!). Version control is a huge problem for professional developers, as you will understand yourself ... What I do is to copy the entire contents of my working directory to one with a new version, and work only on that.

Some people seem to use the "Understand" application (Scitools.com) to do version control, it also has an editor that colours Fortran syntax. For me it is overkill, and yet another "new trick" I didn't want to learn.

Eddie

[jjgermis]

1.) Column editing is also known as block editing. In many cases very practical - see figure below.

2.) I set Crtl+D for the DOS box but it does not work. In this window one can execute normal dos commands. I think that Eddie for example link manually and then this is very practical to have a window (on linux I use Kate e.g. and a terminal for linking and compiling).

4.) Version control could be Subversion for example. I guess one can see it as an optional extra.

[PaulLaidler]

Plato allows some column editing by holding down the ALT kind and dragging with the mouse.

[LitusSaxonicum]

I seem to remember on the VAX that when one had a file, say "Magnet.for", then editing it would create Magnet.for.1, Magnet.for.2 etc. Clearly, one needs to talk to Microsoft about this in the general case, but some sort of version information could be recorded perhaps in a Plato project?

Doesn't help with my two extra lines of pixels though: to solve this in DIY I worked out that I would have to modify some 450 or so icons ... (Groan)

Eddie

[PaulLaidler]

a) I will fix the DOS box problem and make the command more accessible.

b) I will aim to fix the %`rs problem in some way.

c) The next release of Plato will have simple image editing - much better than SCION but not as good as Visual Studio in this respect.

d) I understand that one prefers what one first uses, whether it is an IDE or even a programming language. I was just a little concerned that forum comments might divert new users away from Plato without good reason.

[LitusSaxonicum]

Paul,

Plato has moved on, I see. I'm going to make an effort to use it. An easily-accessible DOS box would allow it to work in a traditional way.

If you are going to put image editing in, then can I suggest it needs to support all of the Clearwin image types - certainly ICO and BMP and conversion between. For ICO, one needs at least the standard range of sizes, different colour depths, and alpha channel operations. I found the standard Windows Paint application quite good enough for BMP, but the Win7 version is less friendly until you get used to it. I suggest looking at IconFX before investing too heavily in the effort of programming your own.

Thanks for offering to look at %`rs - it is a puzzle to me why it changed.

Eddie