
forums.silverfrost.com Welcome to the Silverfrost forums

View previous topic :: View next topic 
Author 
Message 
dgurok
Joined: 26 May 2011 Posts: 66

Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2021 1:59 pm Post subject: Different result in 64bit application 


I have created a simple example which behaves in the 32bit version correct. Same code provides a different result in 64bit application. Looks like the decimal places behave differently.
I’m using the FTN95 version 8.70.0.
Code:  PROGRAM TEST
C
REAL*4 R1, R2, R3
LOGICAL*2 LOGRES
C
R1=14.0541906
R2=0.0015596
R3=14.0526314
C
WRite(*,*) R1
WRite(*,*) R2
WRite(*,*) R3
LOGRES=R1R2.LT.R3
WRITE(*,*) LOGRES
C
END



Back to top 


PaulLaidler Site Admin
Joined: 21 Feb 2005 Posts: 7774 Location: Salford, UK

Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:30 pm Post subject: 


The difference is in the roundoff error. You need double precision. By chance you get the right answer for 32 bits.
Code:  PROGRAM TEST
REAL*8 R1, R2, R3, R4
LOGICAL LOGRES
R1=14.0541906
R2=0.0015596
R3=14.0526314
R4=R1R2
WRite(*,*) R1
WRite(*,*) R2
WRite(*,*) R3
WRite(*,*) R4
LOGRES=R4.LT.R3
WRITE(*,*) R4, R3, LOGRES
END 


Back to top 


dgurok
Joined: 26 May 2011 Posts: 66

Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:47 pm Post subject: 


Yes, just have to change REAL*4 to REAL*8 and bot applications behave same. That’s not the point. This behavior makes an application port from 32bit to 64bit much more complicated. The question is, why does the roundoff error behave so differently. 

Back to top 


mecej4
Joined: 31 Oct 2006 Posts: 1840

Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2021 4:07 pm Post subject: 


In Fortran, expressions, including constants, have type. The number 0.0015596, for example, is of type REAL*4, regardless of the declarations of the named variables. That number, then, has only 17 bits precision. When that value is stored in a REAL*8 variable, the lost precision is not regained.
Related, but somewhat different: In 32bits, FTN95 generates X87 instructions. Intermediate results may be kept in 80bit registers (64bits for mantissa), even for variables that are REAL*4.
In a 64bit program, SSE2 instructions are used, and the registers are only 32bits long (24bit mantissa). 

Back to top 


PaulLaidler Site Admin
Joined: 21 Feb 2005 Posts: 7774 Location: Salford, UK

Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2021 4:15 pm Post subject: 


It could be simply that 32 bits uses FPU (floating point unit) instructions whilst 64 bits uses CPU instructions. More generally it could be because the internal order of the calculations is different or the registers are used in a different way.
If roundoff error is significant then you can get different results between compilers, between processors or even between different options for a given compiler. 

Back to top 


JohnCampbell
Joined: 16 Feb 2006 Posts: 2506 Location: Sydney

Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:23 am Post subject: 


I think that for 32bit, the calculation "R1R2.LT.R3" will compare values in the 80bit FPU.
As R1, R2 and R3 are all real*4, I wonder what values are used ? Perhaps it is using values of R1,R2, R3 in the registers from the previous 32bit truncation, rather that the real*4 memory values.
Either way, the use of "R1R2.LT.R3", where R1R2 and R3 are the same real*4 stored values is a poor (contrived) test.
The adaptation provides some more information, indicating that for the 32bit calculation, the register value might be different to the stored real*4 value.
Code:  PROGRAM TEST
!
REAL*4 R1, R2, R3, r4
LOGICAL*2 LOGRES
!
R1 = 14.0541906 ! 9 figures exceeds real*4 storage accuracy
R2 = 0.0015596
R3 = 14.0526314
R4 = 14.0541906 &
 0.0015596
! 14.0526310
WRite (*,*) R1
WRite (*,*) R2
WRite (*,*) R3
write (*,*) r1r2
write (*,*) (r1r2)r3
!
LOGRES=R1R2.LT.R3
WRITE(*,*) LOGRES
!
WRite (*,1) R1
WRite (*,1) R2
WRite (*,1) R3, nearest(r3,1.), nearest(r3,1.)
write (*,1) r1r2
write (*,1) (r1r2)r3
write (*,2) (r1r2)r3
1 format (3f20.8)
2 format (es20.8)
!
END 
Is this a contrived test or an actual problem ? 

Back to top 


PaulLaidler Site Admin
Joined: 21 Feb 2005 Posts: 7774 Location: Salford, UK

Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:21 pm Post subject: 


I am not sure there is any value is exploring exactly why 32 bits gives the "correct" result, whether by chance or because the calculation is done in a way that provides more precision than demanded. Either way, for 64 bits it is necessary to use double precision for this calculation. 

Back to top 


dgurok
Joined: 26 May 2011 Posts: 66

Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:34 pm Post subject: 


A full switch to double precision is not a solution for us. We try to detect the critical code parts. We will use the REAL function to handle the REAL*4 data as REAL*8. With that change 32bit and 64bit produce same results. Our first tests look promising. 

Back to top 


PaulLaidler Site Admin
Joined: 21 Feb 2005 Posts: 7774 Location: Salford, UK

Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:16 pm Post subject: 


It is sometimes possible to use /DREAL locally (for some files or some subroutines) in order to fix issues of this kind. 

Back to top 


wahorger
Joined: 13 Oct 2014 Posts: 1154 Location: Morrison, CO, USA

Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:30 pm Post subject: 


As an historical note: When I started my first programming course in 1969 (Fortran), one of the pieces of advice we were given was never to do a comparison for equality alone when using a floating point number. Especially when one of the numbers was a constant. The reason stated: strict equality cannot be guaranteed when either the result or the constant has a fractional component, or the integer portion exceeds the precision of the mantissa. I have found that if the equality only involves whole number being calculated from whole numbers (i.e. only integer values used/saved), equality works flawlessly. Nevertheless, I make the appropriate accommodations in the code justincase someone messes with the raw data.
Even on the IBM 7040 (my first real computer) with 72bit double precision, I saw a lot of software being terminated because a loop would not quit as a result of floating point equality checks. My 1970 workstudy job was as a "student consultant", helping students find their bugs and correct them. (BTW, I loved doing this.) Most errors were floating point equality, like calculating the square root of 2 (a typical entrylevel course assignment) and expecting to get a precise answer. The students we were helping with these kinds of problems were almost exclusively in the Business Administration courses, but on campus closer to the Engineering center, so used us rather than their helpers across campus.
When the student would ask "Why doesn't it work?" The answer we would always give was "There are rounding errors and any bits that are lost fall into the bit bucket."
Once we were asked "What happens when the bit bucket fills up?" We had a field day with that one, and I spoke at length on the bucket filling up, and having to be emptied and replaced on a regular basis, interfering with the computer operations, having to replenish the bit reservoir and the expense that incurred, and on and on. I passed this tidbit on to the other student consultants.
Perhaps we were a bit harsh, yes? 

Back to top 


PaulLaidler Site Admin
Joined: 21 Feb 2005 Posts: 7774 Location: Salford, UK

Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:39 pm Post subject: 


Bill
That's interesting. I learned Fortran in about the same year in order to teach it to undergraduate engineers. Before that I only knew Algol 60. 

Back to top 


wahorger
Joined: 13 Oct 2014 Posts: 1154 Location: Morrison, CO, USA

Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:10 pm Post subject: 


Paul, I enjoyed Algol! I kind of twitched at the syntax requirements, though. I'd rather type less! I learned assembly by taking the assembly listing from the compiler, learning different techniques (like indexing) on the 7040. Then, introduced to the IBM 360/40 assembly language used by the University accounting system. I love assembly!
Ah the days of an actual key punch machine. I can still recall the clunking of the punch cutters and the steppers.
Nice to reminisce!
Bill 

Back to top 


JohnCampbell
Joined: 16 Feb 2006 Posts: 2506 Location: Sydney

Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:12 am Post subject: 


When I learnt Algol and FORTRAN, most card punch machines were "026" and a few "029".
Algol was no fun with those card punches and I soon went back to FORTRAN.
The OP is ignoring the reality of floating point precision, where the calculation "R1R2.LT.R3" is subject to roundoff error, especially where R1R2 has the same 32bit binary representation as R3.
The Fortran 90 Standard actually addresses this issue and demonstrates one of the nonstandard features of FTN95, which was not required of FTN77. I am one of those who objected to this Fortran 90 feature, but it shows it's benefit in this example. 

Back to top 


DietmarSiepmann
Joined: 03 Jun 2013 Posts: 279

Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:45 am Post subject: 


Bill, John, Paul,
I would like to comment your very interesting comments.
I learnt ALGOL W in 1974 (approximately) and then changed to ALGOL 60 when implementing algorithms in numerical analysis (as part of my studies in mathematics). I liked both very much, especially ALGOL 60 because ALGOL60 was the programming language in which the mathematical scientists published in that time.
But I was also very fond of C which I learnt when programming on the old UNIX environments/machines.
I know that you better not compare real numbers for equality in mathematical algorithms. But in this special situation I did not expect a roundoff error.
One more reminiscense: I remember that in 1974 (and some years later) we sometimes did not find a free card punch machine at once in the computing center rooms and had to wait some time. Well ... times have changed ...
Regards,
Dietmar 

Back to top 


JohnCampbell
Joined: 16 Feb 2006 Posts: 2506 Location: Sydney

Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:26 pm Post subject: 


When I learnt ALGOL and FORTRAN in 1973, I did not know that language Standards existed. We learnt the language provided for the hardware.
ALGOL was on the KDF9 and (McCracken) FORTRAN was on the 7040. ALGOL was a very short experience on the KDF9!
After that year of FORTRAN, I look back at how little I learnt with one run submitted per day of term. I certainly did not fully understand static variables, or the accuracy of real variables on different hardware. Next year was CDC which improved things.
In the original post, providing real*4 constants to 9 significant figures indicates some optimism that is misplaced. 

Back to top 




You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
