forums.silverfrost.com Forum Index forums.silverfrost.com
Welcome to the Silverfrost forums
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

VS2017 updated plugin
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    forums.silverfrost.com Forum Index -> Suggestions
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
alex21



Joined: 20 Apr 2011
Posts: 53
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 3:41 am    Post subject: VS2017 updated plugin Reply with quote

New C# language features no longer work in VS2015 with MS seemingly having written the version off and out of maintinance already...

However support for VS2017 seems great and it is being updated frequently, so I was wondering if there is currently a plan to support it with the FTN95 plugin? Otherwise to suggest that VS2017 plugin would be a great help to people who want to use new C# language features alongside their FTN95 projects.

Thanks,
Alex.


Last edited by alex21 on Mon May 28, 2018 10:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
KL



Joined: 16 Nov 2009
Posts: 138

PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I completely agree and support the suggestion of Alex.

It seems that with the FTN95 .NET compiler option Fortran has become one of several .NET languages which communicate through the Common Intermediated Language. Recent own tests show that it is possible to call within Visual Studio a Fortran program (project) as dll from another project written in another .NET language, in my case C#. This is similar to call a C# project from a Visual Basic project which for instance organizes the GUI.

For doing this, the Fortran main program should best be condensed to a subroutine, say “Subroutine DriverProgramxy”. This subroutine is just called as method from the C# project (“ DRIVERPROGRAMXY(); ”). That is all. Any single subroutine could be called in a similar way. Does this .NET multilingual approach not seem to be extremely promising? It could help keeping older Fortran programs alive with a very reasonable effort.

The Fortran project which I used for testing is of small to medium size but of rather high complexity, i.e. all “interesting” Fortran features are included. As Fortran program it has been tested successfully also with other Fortran compilers.

The good message is -as mentioned above- that calling the Fortran program from a C# program finally worked. The less good message is that during the analyses I experienced numerous problems, for example:

For Plato 4.83 only 8 of the compiler options work; Checkmate x64 fails. For Visual Studio Community 2015 with the Ftn95 plug-in Checkmate .NET fails.

The result for producing dlls is even more problematic:

Plato 4.83 does not produce any of the win32 dlls (error message is “Cannot create DLL: nothing to export”). However, the .NET and win64 dlls are produced which indicates that for these options the defaults are set correctly. The .NET Release dll has been used for testing.

For Visual Studio Community 2015 with the Ftn95 plug-in the Fortran dlls cannot be created. The error message is either again “Cannot create DLL: nothing to export” or an *.pdb file is created instead of the dll file set in the project property window. Here my knowledge is simply insufficient and as user I would need more detailed information.

It is relatively unclear what additional libraries must be added as reference. I have referenced ftn95lib.dll. However, there are two further libraries (ftn95lib.mdl and ftn95lib1.mdl), which are not accepted by Visual Studio to be included as reference. I have simply copied both into the directories Debug and Release of the C# project.

In summary: The multilingual .NET approach seems to be promising, but the Ftn95 plug-in for Visual Studio needs further attention and documentation. A revised plug-in for Visual Studio Community 2017 could be an important contribution for using the many older Fortran programs in a modern environment.

Klaus
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
John-Silver



Joined: 30 Jul 2013
Posts: 959
Location: Aerospace Valley

PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This .NET mularkey is all very well and good in theory, but I've never yet seen a good, simple explanation of how it works, nor exactly hos in practice it should be 'applied'.
Until that happens the general demand for it must be seen as 'limited' and the expectation of an update to cater for VS 2017 Community let's say 'optimistic' , whrn there are other much more imporrtant shortcomings to fix first. It's called the law of ecoměnomics I think.
Just my opinion.
_________________
''Computers are incredibly rigid. They question nothing. Especialy input data.Human beings are incredibly trusting of computers and don't check input data. Together they are capable of cocking up even the simplest calculation ... Smile "
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
narayanamoorthy_k



Joined: 19 Jun 2014
Posts: 136
Location: Chennai, IN

PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KL/Paul

Is there PLATO 4.83 Available for download in our SilverFrost site. Please let me know. I am still using 4.81.

Thanks,
_________________
Thanks and Regards
Moorthy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
PaulLaidler
Site Admin


Joined: 21 Feb 2005
Posts: 5597
Location: Salford, UK

PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The current release is v4.83 and I am pretty sure that it is available to everyone.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
narayanamoorthy_k



Joined: 19 Jun 2014
Posts: 136
Location: Chennai, IN

PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is this part of FTN95 PE 8.30?
_________________
Thanks and Regards
Moorthy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
PaulLaidler
Site Admin


Joined: 21 Feb 2005
Posts: 5597
Location: Salford, UK

PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes. You should find it there.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
alex21



Joined: 20 Apr 2011
Posts: 53
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Reply with quote

John-Silver wrote:
This .NET mularkey is all very well and good in theory, but I've never yet seen a good, simple explanation of how it works, nor exactly hos in practice it should be 'applied'.
Until that happens the general demand for it must be seen as 'limited' and the expectation of an update to cater for VS 2017 Community let's say 'optimistic' , whrn there are other much more imporrtant shortcomings to fix first. It's called the law of ecoměnomics I think.
Just my opinion.


You can figure it out pretty easily from the documentation, however there are a number of undocumented linker bugs which can make compiling source code a nightmare.

They need to at least support a working version of VS to make the .NET integration anything less then a nightmare for people who have not used it before.

Currently I have debugged the VS plugin and written a few build scripts to parse the Silverfrost project file and determine dependencies before building them in the correct order and linking them. So I can build my Silverfrost FTN95 .NET assemblies in later versions of VS then 2015 but this makes for a very crappy debugging experience...

The only reason we purchase this compiler is because of its .NET integrations but there are actually much nicer FTN compilers available if we just wanted to compile Win32 binaries...

@Paul can you give any updates on plugin development? Especially with the release of VS2019 announced?

Thanks,
Alex.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
DanRRight



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 1879
Location: South Pole, Antarctica

PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Reply with quote

alex21 wrote:
but there are actually much nicer FTN compilers available if we just wanted to compile Win32 binaries...


And after 30 years of waiting for nicer FTN compilers then Salford FTN77 and then Silverfrost FTN95 you will tell us that they are...?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
John-Silver



Joined: 30 Jul 2013
Posts: 959
Location: Aerospace Valley

PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

... and why hey're better of course

Compilers are very subjective things. Each maybe has 'something' which 'catches' the user, some fancy bell or whistle which hooks the prey. For example, give me a fortran compiler with nice integrated professional plotting facilities and I'd be mighty tempted to jump ship LOL

A software developer's motto would be:-
'we do well what YOU the user wants ... and if you're lucky some of our bells & whistles will please you too''

'a 'best compiler' is therefore a bit of an endless string of competing baited hooks

We all (users, developers, everyone) sometimes forget that developing any program, let alone a compiler, is oft a tortuous route

I praise the lord that there is such a choice. Long live FORTRAN !!!
_________________
''Computers are incredibly rigid. They question nothing. Especialy input data.Human beings are incredibly trusting of computers and don't check input data. Together they are capable of cocking up even the simplest calculation ... Smile "
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
alex21



Joined: 20 Apr 2011
Posts: 53
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Reply with quote

John-Silver wrote:
... and why hey're better of course

Compilers are very subjective things. Each maybe has 'something' which 'catches' the user, some fancy bell or whistle which hooks the prey. For example, give me a fortran compiler with nice integrated professional plotting facilities and I'd be mighty tempted to jump ship LOL


This compiler is the best for accomplishing this task because of its .NET integration, for example I use the open source scientific plotting library OxyPlot with the results produced directly from my FORTRAN code. But you could actually use the library directly from FTN95 if you liked writing lots and lots of code...

But if your just compiling a Win32 binary you could probably get away with a free compiler such as GFortran and have your code take input files and produce output files which are handled by another application for plotting.

Anyway it all comes down to personal preference and I am sure there are others like me who heavily use features of the compiler allowing .NET assemblies to be produced.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
DanRRight



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 1879
Location: South Pole, Antarctica

PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This OxyPlot is a joke to even try it. Such projects typically die in few years taking down your code with them because users typically do not pay a single cent for such primitive XY plot utilities alone:

"OxyPlot is primarily focused on two-dimensional coordinate systems, that’s the reason for the ‘xy’ in the name!"... ROTFL

I have seen a dozen such dead projects in 3 decades, most of them were much more sophisticated. Even damn dead Simpleplot was like a PhD student versus this one from kindergarden.

Right now native %PL is in development with FTN95. This essentially brings Fortran in par or even more with the leader of simplicity and usability in scientific and engineering MATLAB which obviously with its huge users base will never be down. You better start using native %PL and join other users to suggest its developers any new features you would like to see. Even now native %PL can make plots way better then many other utilities and it is done very simple way. If there will be bigger demand and a lot of interested users we will convince developers to implement not just XY and Surface plots but also Contour plots and 3D plots and hopefully all professional quality plots will be done in one single line of Fortran code. There are a lot of options for improvement.

The key advantage is that this graphics is part of the compiler library done by the same compiler developers, that means zero chances that some part of your code will stop to be supported.

Here is one my example of plotted quality of native PL (though this was older version), and there are a lot more quality plots posted before using FTN95 OpenGL
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
John-Silver



Joined: 30 Jul 2013
Posts: 959
Location: Aerospace Valley

PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see where you're coming from Dan.

I tried looking into OxyPlot (in a global overview sort of way) and fell at the first hurdle ... finding any decent documentation !
I did have a chuckle when I came across this: https://github.com/oxyplot/oxyplot/issues/1214
For obvious reasons Wink

OxyPlot appears to be one of those 'amateur developers babies' - unintelligible to the rest of the universe !
I rest my case in referring you to the associated 'forum' , the 'Issues' section of their github webpage ....
https://github.com/oxyplot/oxyplot/issues?page=2&q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen

Am I alone in thinking that 'github' was conceived for this type of 'project' with one eye on the name of the 'repository' ? (yes I know there are exceptions but I can't agree that this is one of them)
However, who are we to criticise anothers choice if it suits their needs/expertise/prpensity to sufferance ?

%PL is not without reproach as we all know.
I won't hide my surprise at what appears to be the indefinite suspension of (?), not new features or fancy bells and whistles, but bug-fixes, in ironing out the creases in %PL. Still so near and yet so far as far as I'm concerned.

'Robustness is it not for the lacking of ?' (as late great Graham Taylor (1) might say Smile )

Until those well-documented 'issues' are all sorted any 'push' by the rabble for contours/3-D/etc... would be akin to having allusions of taking flying lessons with porcine friends.
After all, who are we, the users, to know best ?

... but we keep following that elusive yellow-brick road.
____________________________________________

Note (1)
American' Alert - * World Series Football Warning* Wink
For those who don't know who Graham Taylor was ...... https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/a7614a3d14cb2c5eecd6073aacd1c8b77f9bd614/0_254_3552_2132/master/3552.jpg?w=620&q=55&auto=format&usm=12&fit=max&s=efdc8421fbb13a215aa96354d624f726

... after all, you can't argue with someone who has a stand named after him.

ALL software developers should watch this as a guide to success, even when 'failing' the general masses Wink
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAke3P4hKZA

now how does that song go, ah yes ...

"Want more and more
contour and 3D plots
want more and more
not only X-Y plots
want more and more ...

%PL's on fi-re,
simpleplot is past it's life .....
%PL's on fi-re,
your .NET is terr-i-fied .....
Da-da da-da da daaaaa da, da-da da da-da, da da da da-daa ..... etc ..."

(I've just realised the significance of %PL !!!

last lines can be replaced at will (griggs) with Smile ....

" Paul Laidler's on Fi-re
his resolve's consoli-fide .....
%PL's on Fi-re
your plot software's terr-i-fied .....
Da-da da-da da daaaaa da, da-da da da-da, da da da daa .....
etc.... etc ...... "

yes that's the one, they were singing it just last week ....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoSTun8Z6g8&pbjreload=10

PS consolifide IS a real word and I challenge anyone to prove otherwise against all logic in the face of some magnificent scanning verse ! Wink
_________________
''Computers are incredibly rigid. They question nothing. Especialy input data.Human beings are incredibly trusting of computers and don't check input data. Together they are capable of cocking up even the simplest calculation ... Smile "
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DanRRight



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 1879
Location: South Pole, Antarctica

PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:07 am    Post subject: Re: Reply with quote

alex21 wrote:
I use the open source scientific plotting library OxyPlot with the results produced directly from my FORTRAN code. But you could actually use the library directly from FTN95 if you liked writing lots and lots of code...


Lot and lots of code? For the most cases for example MATLAB uses one line of text and produces very decent draft versions suitable for publications. The %PL and now native %PL achieved almost the same quality and sometimes even surpassed it. In one line of Fortran code.

John, your post with scatter plot example was like dancing on dead body. By the way, for fans of Russian footbal championship -- you can not even imagine how russians will pronounce the word "OxyPlot" because they as usually will pronounce xy their own way Smile Smile Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
John-Silver



Joined: 30 Jul 2013
Posts: 959
Location: Aerospace Valley

PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i knew you'd appreciate the dancing on dead bodies Dan Wink

you'll have to enlighten us about the pronunciation Dan ...... do a recording and upload it please !
_________________
''Computers are incredibly rigid. They question nothing. Especialy input data.Human beings are incredibly trusting of computers and don't check input data. Together they are capable of cocking up even the simplest calculation ... Smile "
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    forums.silverfrost.com Forum Index -> Suggestions All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
Page 1 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group