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jjgermis · Joined: 21 Jun 2006 Posts: 404 Location: Nürnberg, Germany

In many cases it is still a question which program language to use for future developments. Recently I discovered a decision matrix form 2003 (I think). At the time the programer responsible for an essential program retired. The code was partly in very old Fortran and not well documented. The code was analysed (unfortunatlely without success) and the outcome was a decision to develop the software from scratch. However, the question was which language. At the time I was not in the department where this was done. At first I did not know whether I should start such a decision matrix in the forum or only present the final outcome. I finally decided to present the result.

The decision matrix has two sections, one for the present and one for the future. It is important to mention that the software is used for the design of electrical machines, i.e. only numerical calculations. Criteria for the matrix were defined as follows:

jjgermis · Joined: 21 Jun 2006 Posts: 404 Location: Nürnberg, Germany

As mentioned the in the opening of this topic: The software we speak about is intended for numerics. Furthermore, a few colleagues cannot understand this result. The group who did this definitely had some blinkers. It is on hand that they wanted a specific result. Anyway, I have some interessting couter-arguments:

Compiler availability: There are several Fortran compilers available, i.e. Absoft, Intel, Silverfrost, PGI and PathScale.

Numerical applications: If we want to convert Fahrenheit to Celsius a Fortran and JAVA program would look something like this:

JohnCampbell · Joined: 16 Feb 2006 Posts: 2554 Location: Sydney

Two points I could make on this and other similar posts on this subject.
1) There should be some qualification of your discussion, based on the complexity of the numerical calculations involved. Fortran is more suited to more complex calculations or where previously developed and proven numerical algorithms are available.
2) your selection of language should also consider the user interface. From the example you have posted, Visual Basic and FTN95 Clearwin+ are two other classes of solution that could be differentiated from what you have presented.

I was interested in your decision matrix, with the relative weightings to the items listed and the other points that could have been included, such as availability of proven algorithms, accuracy of coding and error identification. Judging by the nominations, Fortran was not the answer wanted, as no compiler, programmers or suitable operating system exist.

Good luck with that committee

TheFaber · Joined: 05 Nov 2009 Posts: 1

DanRRight · Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 5:43 am Post subject:

Completely off-topic - how this Java F to C conversion program looks like ? I mean graphically or GUI-wise. Is it nice looking, convenient to use? Can someone publish the image? For comparison i show how F to C and as a bonus to K (do you also need electon-volts?) looks in Clearwin+, with the same overall text size. It automatically as you type converts everything into everything and for human body temperature range you even do not have to type anything

Text is below

jjgermis · Joined: 21 Jun 2006 Posts: 404 Location: Nürnberg, Germany

I am familiar with the Fortran standards committee. As far as I know this committee is independant of compiler developers. This is of course a very good point! Once the new standard is available, the compiler developers can start developing.

Which of the other available languages are "organized" like this? If one looks at C++: One get Microsoft C++ and for example Borland C++. Each of them develops a C++ compiler for what they believe is C++. And if you try some program that was developed with a Microsoft compiler it will in most cases not work the first time with a Borland compiler (I recently experienced this once again). Furthermore, if some guys do not like a programming language, they start to develop a new one. Was this not the case with Java which developed form C++? Instead of expanding C++ some guys developed Java. And when comes the next generation that does not like Java and then make something new from this?

Is a language committee not a valueble argument to consider for a language to have a future? I once heard a saying: In 3000 there will be many programming languages, one of them will be Fortran.

jjgermis · Joined: 21 Jun 2006 Posts: 404 Location: Nürnberg, Germany

Hi DanRRight;

I have seen some cool stuff that were done using Clearwin! This makes Fortran again a very interesting programing language for my application.

In a recent thread (http://forums.silverfrost.com/viewtopic.php?t=1519) I tried to plot a finite element mesh using Clearwin. I soon realized that one need a little bit more. Especially the transformation from the real-world-axis to the window-axis. This might not be that difficult. However, some example to get me going would be helpful.

You seem to be very fit in Clearwin. At present I have some (quick and dirty) solution using simpleplot. Can you perhaps provide an equivalent example using Clearwin? This would be great! And good for the future Very Happy

DanRRight · Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 3:12 am Post subject:

Just use OpenGL, you will be stunned by what you'll get. I can send you nice and easy example if i'll find it. BTW, I have sent a year or two ago such and some other snippet examples to Silverfrosts Andrew when he asked here for user examples contributions . Did not heard since that how this idea was evolving

jjgermis · Joined: 21 Jun 2006 Posts: 404 Location: Nürnberg, Germany

From a recent discussion I noticed a very important aspect not taken into account in the points mentioned in the firts entry (this thread).

It is common practice to keep the Fortran code (in its DOS-box mode) and then combine it with some GUI in another programming language. Using ClearWin directly saves of huge amount of time: It takes quite a while to define a working interface between the GUI and the program. The effort to prepare the in- and output files is often underestimated. Therefore, why not spent the time in some ClearWin+ development!

The advantage of doing everything in one language is that the variables are all in memory on execution and no interfaces is required. And in most scientific applications the user has to input his model data and calculate.

DanRRight · Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:10 am Post subject:

DanRRight · Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 5:39 pm Post subject:

OK, i see no answer on my last last question too.
The answer is 1 (one) single line of fortran code. We do not count END statement and resources of course, they can be used for many windows. Here is the whole code:

DanRRight · Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 5:46 pm Post subject:

With this respect it's ridiculous how sounds Polyhedron "advertisement" of Clearwin+

http://polyhedron.com/clearwin

"Salford Clearwin+ is very concise, 'Hello World' requires only 4 lines of Fortran code..."

And amazing nobody ever fixed that in a dozen of years Sad

Yes, this is how Salford always advertised itself from its day one. This is truly amazing.

sparge · Joined: 11 Apr 2005 Posts: 371

The code doesn't give an Exit button as claimed, but it does compile and link and run and produce a UI similar to the illustration.

I was surprised to find that a PROGRAM statement was not required (I knew STOP was optional). I was also surprised (at first) to find that the compiler didn't complain about i and j not being declared, which would have taken another line Very Happy

I take issue with not counting resource statements as lines just because they can be re-used. They might only count once, but they count.

Obviously I take your point - whether it's 1 line (being charitable) or 7 (being strict; even I don't count comment lines), it's still very impressive. OTOH, we have C available if we want to go in for obfuscated code, don't we. One-line programs are not playing the FORTRAN game at all Wink

If I was going to be really pernickety I might question whether a proprietary extension to a standard-conforming compiler counts as a language. Isn't that a little like claiming that there's something special about the Geordie dialect because it's the only "language" in which "Why-aye" requires just one line of code? N.B. this analogy may be less than transparent to you and other Transpondians Wink

Andy

JohnHorspool · Joined: 26 Sep 2005 Posts: 270 Location: Gloucestershire UK

Andy, the exit button is provided by the bitmap e.bmp

Also I have written fortran code for over thirty years without ever declaring i and j to be integers! Is it wrong to use the defaults i.j.k.l.m.n for integers and the rest for reals?

jjgermis · Joined: 21 Jun 2006 Posts: 404 Location: Nürnberg, Germany

Dan, I never would have guess that it is possible in one line of code. This is all new to me (Clearwin+) and I enjoy testing your examples!

We also have code where i,j,k,l,m and n are not declared as integers. Is'nt this the implicit way of declaring variables. However, when I use something like Understand4Fortran to analyse the code, it is given as integer. I assume that implicit none was introduced at a later stage.

Yes, I agree that the marketing at Silverfrost can be better. During 2000 I started using FTN95. At that time I by accident discovered the ClearWin manuals in some cupboard. It looked quite impressive. However, it was presented in some style that was not convincing. Neither could I find information in the internet. If I would have started using it then I would have been much better off today!